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From: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #769
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 18 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 769



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Special Offers"
Survey Payments and Core Sector UWPs
Re: Response to Ken Whitman...
Re: CORE: ADVANCED CHARACTER GENERATION - Tell Us All!
CORE character generation books
A Humble Request
Ship Designs
Re: Ship Designs
Re: Starship construction figures
Starship Design Philosophy
Traveller on IRC
Re: But It Doesn't Look The Way _I_ Want It...
Re: Ship Designs
An opinion and a question...
Hull Shapes...
Re: Starship Design Philosophy
Starships
Traveller Integrated Timeline
Re: RCES LBD

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:21:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: "Special Offers"

On Wed, 18 Dec 1996 BrianMays@aol.com wrote:

> That was me, Joe.  And thank you for the info.  Perhaps some of my friends
> will be getting belated Christmas presents . . .perhaps I'll just get them a
> Hickory Farms Sausage Sampler and keep all the Traveller goodies to myself!
>  AH HAHAHAHA!!

I'd skip the sausage sampler if I were you, unless you can find a store 
that also has the Errata Pak.  I hear they left out the pig snouts... [G]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 14:17:55 +0000
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Survey Payments and Core Sector UWPs

PAYMENT FOR SURVEYS
- -------------------

terry.williams@luton.ac.uk asks:
...
>guidelines for how many Cr to give my players for discoveries made on scouting
>surveys.
...
>a) UWP survey info
>b) High Tech Level Artifacts
>c) anything else you can think of :-)

I can't think of cash values straight off, but I'd imagine that you could
grade it:

Basic UWP stuff (assuming they've visited the star system) - about 1/2 the
cost of getting the ship there, because this information can probably be
built up from passing traders, etc. If the system's totally new, or they've
been _asked_ by the IISS to do it, then perhaps full costs for the trip plus
a weekly pay equivalent.

A few detailed scans of the main planet (complete surface maps) - full costs
plus say Cr3,000 per UWP size digit?

Complete scans of natural resources (you'd need quite a lot of sensor
equipment to do this) say Cr5,000 per UWP size digit.

A ground-based analysis of the locals, or perhaps a long period of recording
their broadcasts, or whatever, on a fairly non-hazardous planet, say Cr4,000
per population digit?

In the extreme, a ground-based analysis on a hazardous world up to having
worked out a complete translation for their language and recorded a
substantial amount of cultural information would probably work out to Cr3000
per person per week spent working on it (that wouldn't be a quoted IISS
figure, but that's the way you as a referee could work it out). Such a
survey could take years and lots of people, but could be very valuable.

HOWEVER, meddling in, or cocking up, the local culture... giving away
technology, trading without an IISS license, etc. could all cause the
rewards to disappear and substantial fines, prison sentences, impounding of
ship, etc. by the Imperial authorities.

Alien artefact finds would be on a straight payment plus a percentage of any
final value (if auctioned to a collector or if used _directly_ in some
technological innovation). Straight payment would be small (say Cr1000) as
would the percentage (say 1%) but then something that led, say, to the
creation of black globes, might net the finder a humungous amount of
finders' royalties.

CORE SECTOR DATA
- ----------------

Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at> asked:
>Is there any Sector Data of Core available (not just one Subsector as in T4)?

We generated a potential set of data (based on down-grading existing 1100
data) for use both with Milieu 0 and First Survey, but I'm not sure what
Authority are doing with this. In fact I worry what they're doing with all
the Milieu 0 stuff we wrote, given the way the Starships stuff seems not to
totally resemble what the authors sent in...

Andy :-?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:33:49 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Response to Ken Whitman...

At 07:11 AM 12/18/96 -0600, Joe Walsh wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Don McKinney wrote:

>> I would like to be the first person to call for the reinstatement of the
>> X-boat mailing list, since postings which are not conforming to IG's views
>> are not acceptable here.

>Don't be silly.  IG doesn't own this list.  Besides, Ken Whitman has 
>nothing to do with IG - as he recently posted, he's just here as a fan.  
>He's given his opinion of how the conversation should proceed, and some 
>people have responded.  I don't see a need to flee this list!

For the record, this list operates under a modified first amendment right
basis.  That is, you are free to say what you want to say as long as:

    a) It relates to Traveller
    b) It is not intentional flame bait
    c) It is not insultory to an individual
    d) Language is kept somewhat PG-13 or kinder

If you have an opinion that does not follow the IG thinking, feel free to
post it.  That's why the list is here to discuss the game, not as an IG
information source.  We are very happy that IG recognizes this list,
subscribes to it, and takes part in our discussions.  As far as I can tell,
IG has never done anything that would limit your freedom to discuss your
views.

Now the Ken Whitman thing is probably a simple statement that Ken no longer
works for IG (based on what I have read).  However, he is free to still
particpate in discussions.  It would be similar to if I left this job for
another, and still wanted to talk about Traveller, I could do so, but the
employeer I left, would need to let you know that I am no-longer "offical".
 This has gotten a bit blown out of proportion.

As far as X-Boat goes, it is dead.  It's mission was to talk about Classic
Traveller and not TNE.  Now the Traveller list is handling things well and
Xboat had died its own death.  It will not be resurrected.  Should there be
a resurgance of TNE talk or if IG takes Traveller down a path that diverges
from the core of Classic Traveller, then there might be new list(s) created
to deal with that, in any case IG, its representatives, and so on are going
to be free to subscibe to those lists as well.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:51:15 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: CORE: ADVANCED CHARACTER GENERATION - Tell Us All!

"Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:
          >>him year by year.  My absolute favorite char gen system is the 1
          year
          >>method.

"Andy Lilly" <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk> replied:
>If you can generate a 1-year system that isn't _too_ much more work >to
roll up, _plus_ gives you a better feeling for character >background,

No wonder Andy is so busy.  All those characters generated year by year.
Perhaps you could publish a supplement that charachters could use as month
by month diaries.

>and which gives _equal_ skills to those in the basic T4 book (much >easier
than with CT, since T4 has started off with 1 skill min per >year), then I
don't think you can go wrong.

but yes, please, please keep them compatible.  I still recall realization
dawning that letting PCs loose with books 4-8 meant upgrading NPCs or
starting all over.


>CORE is currently planning out a series of such books. The obvious

Hooray!  Given COREs products to date they must be fast aiming at *being*
the new DGP.  (Sorry Rodge, that wasn't meant to sound like a cheap shot at
you, just a compliment to the previous DGPers at the quality of their
products.)

>question is, what would you like to have in such a book other than >the 1-
year system? More detail on the character _class_, or splitting >major
classes into subclasses, or just adding lots of new careers?

I'd go with the first or third choice personally.  How about *lots* of new
career books detailing the character *classes*?

>How about little things specific to classes, i.e. special contacts or >
equipment - perhaps even ships.

Sounds good to me.

>Would you want to see career-oriented adventures (several A4 pages), >say
1 per career, or just plots that the ref' can flesh out? Would

Dare I say "both".  How about a longer adventure and several plots?

>you want the career detail to be Milieu-specific? How detailed do you
I'm not sure I'd want it to be this specific but what might be good would
be pointers as to how to make them more appropriate for a particular
milieu.

>want the career description - i.e. a technical discussion of how the >
Imperial army's organised, or just a brief bit of fiction describing >a
typical trooper in a warzone.

Definitely the first but only the latter if it wasn't at the expense of
anything else.


          >TELL US WHAT YOU WANT AND WE'LL SEE IF WE CAN EXCEED YOUR
          EXPECTATIONS...

You're doing well so far.

tc
"Of course, I just want *everything* really."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:52:51 +0000
From: Dhivael <nwhitehe@mic.dundee.ac.uk>
Subject: CORE character generation books

>CORE is currently planning out a series of such books. The obvious question
>is, what would you like to have in such a book other than the 1-year system?
>
>TELL US WHAT YOU WANT AND WE'LL SEE IF WE CAN EXCEED YOUR EXPECTATIONS...

Well I liked Advanced Character Generation... but back to the point.

I'd like plenty of milleu-specific technical stuff; apart from being good
background for character generation, it would also be interesting from the GM
point of view to see how and why things have changed.

How about 1 book per milleu, giving all of the appropriate information for that
period - military organisation, major technical and scientific institutions,
current economic state and operations of the megacorporations. Hard facts and
figures rather than hand-waving generalisations.

Sub-classes would be good, provided that characters could move out of them.
Perhaps this could be done by adding more detail at the assignment stage
of career history generation.

But whatever you do, PLEASE, no fiction! Nor am I too keen on having adventures
in the book - how about a seperate supplement with these instead?

- - Nik

****************************************************************************
                         More deadly than the Male.
           Dr. Nik Whitehead - Seeker of the Lost Island of Munga
                http://www.mcs.dundee.ac.uk:8080/~nwhitehe/
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:27:30 -0600
From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Subject: A Humble Request

Well, I have put this post off too long.  Before you raise those PGMP's and
point them at me, I am not about to get involved in the flame war (yet),
this actually has nothing to do with it. :)

I am looking for someone to give me the right contacts for the Traveller
people other than IG or Sweetpea or AP&D.  What I mean is The folks that do
TLWH and Traveller Digest and whatever other Trav Products are available out
there.  I would prefer an point of contact on American soil (we poor grunts
can't pay too much for shipping) but If there is no POC here, then I guess I
can pay for the shipping.

Anyway, thanks for the help folks.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:21:31 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Ship Designs

There have been a number of ship designs posted here as of late for T4. I
would like to applaud these efforts! This is the kind of thing I like to see
on this list; USEFUL info that can be used in my games. Maybe we could
compile a net.book consisting of these designs and corrected versions of
those that appear in Starships. That would be a great service to the
Traveller community, I think.
                                        allen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:30:56 EST
From: galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
Subject: Re: Ship Designs

This is a great idea.  I have space on my AOL account if anybody would
like to send me the designs.  I have a few of my own I plan to put up
when I get the deckplans completed.


Scott M. Galliand
************************************************
E-mail: galliand@juno.com
WWW:  http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:33:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Starship construction figures

Thad Coons writes:

> I just went through the TL-15 ships in MT Fighting Ships of the Imperium,
> and it appears that the average cost used in TCS is a truly gross
> oversimplification. Among TL-15 ships, Tankers cost around .1-.2 MCr/T;
> battle tenders and carriers at .3 MCr/T; light escorts in the .5-.75 MCr/T
> range; light cruisers about 1.2 MCr/T; Fighters, Heavy cruisers, light
> battleships, dreadnoughts, and light battle riders around 4-6 MCr/T; and
> the heaviest craft with equally hefty price tages of 16-25 MCr/T.
> Checking with TNE gives costs of around .5 MCr/T for the smaller civilian
> types. Such variability in ship costs does bad things to your calculations
> on shipbuilding capacities. 
> 
> If you keep your TCS assumptions of 1 T per thousand imperial citizens, and
> use .5 MCr/T as an average base cost, you get annual shipyard capacity of
> 500 MCr per million citizens, or (for instance) 15 million MCr for your
> world of 30 billion. Comparing that with MT's 3 million MCr for a 700 kT
> Dreadnought gives a production figure I can live with. I think I could
> accept figures and rates based on MT, TNE, or T4 ship prices.

Hoo boy.  The dinosaurs stir in their long sleep. (-:

There is a major problem with Mr. Coons' line of reasoning, and that is
that Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium was without a doubt the
worst product ever issued for MegaTraveller. The designs of the ships
are riddled with typos, don't conform to the rules (especially in the case
of maximum armor limits), and are not even close to optimized for the combat
system.  The general result is that the battleships are all horrendously
overpriced, and more reasonable designs tend back toward that .5MCr/ton
generalization.

The problem still exists with relative resource levels between the Imperium 
and the Aslan or Vargr, even if the total number of ships is reduced.

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net
(Hi Hans!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:38:42 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Starship Design Philosophy

A number of people (myself included) have noted that starships from Mileau
0 are pretty much the same *designs* as starships 2,000 years later, just
packaged in different shells.

Perhaps it's time to start a discussion on design *philosophy.* What social
paradigms in Mileau 0 would make starship function/interior design
*different* than those
2,000 years later?

The example I used was the difference betweena  Roman Villa and a
contemporary upper-middle class dwelling. Technology aside, the designs are
just *different*, relying on and bowing to differing social forces of the
day.

It's been noted that society is believed to be more dynamic in Mileau 0
than it will be once Strephon takes the throne. How will that be reflected
in design philosophy? (We're not talking simply tacking on tailfins here -
we're talking overall approach). Larger, hence less "efficient" staterooms?
More living space, more comfort, with less emphasis on the bottom line? Or
will there be a Wild West mentality, with most ships resembling the Secure
trader?

To me, the differences between Mileau 2000 Aslan, K'Kree and Vilani
starships is what I think of when I think of differing design paradigms. I
don't see any reason why starships from Mileau 0 and Strephon's Imperium
should be - when compared side-by-side - any less alien.

Ideas? Opinions?

John Kovalic






********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:26:40 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Hi!

Its been pointed out to me that I neglected to include some basic 
information in my last post.....

When:  Thursday night
             5:00pm Pacific
             6:00pm Mountain
             7:00pm Central
             8:00pm Eastern
             2:00am London

Where:  IRC, Undernet
             Server of choice:  stlouis.mo.us.undernet.org
                                          ports 6660-6669
              Channel:   #traveller

Who:   Anyone and everyone who loves Traveller.

Subject:   Gaming on the Net: Play by Email and IRC


Again, please email me if you need any help in joining us.  
#traveller is a happening place these days.... and not just on 
Thursday nights!

Also, can I open the floor please for a good time on Saturday or 
Sunday that would be convenient for the European continent to have a 
scheduled #traveller session? 

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 11:44:23 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: But It Doesn't Look The Way _I_ Want It...

In a message dated 96-12-18 01:22:58 EST, Harold Hale wrote:

>   The day this list resorts to Politically Correct speech is the day I
>  will unsubscribe myself from it, permanently.  
>  

Indeed.  I have been playing Traveller in it's many incarnations since the
early 80's.  I have spent the better part of 15 years wandering about
cramped, dusty, litlle bookstores and gameshops seeking anything with the
words "Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future" emblazoned on the cover.
 As I indicated in my post regarding the "Starships Sucks" thread, if I never
read another word of criticism about that particular product, I will consider
myself a better man for it.  That said, anyone who chooses to write such
posts has every right to do so.  This list is a Godsend to someone like me,
who long ago moved far away from his "gaming circle," and now has to make do
with whomever he can find.  And lastly, anyone who dares challenge whether or
not *I* care about Traveller should be prepared to back it up with a FGMP-15,
else angels will weep for you.  

Now about those .1C chunks of rock...

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 11:52:08 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship Designs

In a message dated 96-12-18 11:12:40 EST, Allen wrote:

>  Maybe we could
>  compile a net.book consisting of these designs and corrected versions of
>  those that appear in Starships. That would be a great service to the
>  Traveller community, I think.


Again, I wholeheartedly agree.  I apologize for not posting mine yet (the
Holidays get rather busy 'round here).  Soon, I say, soon.

Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, Ignorance."--- Socrates

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:54:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Dane Johnson <danger@visi.com>
Subject: An opinion and a question...

First, A Question:

I'm going to be working on some deckplans of my own.  I've settled on a
1.5m grid.  I'm trying to decide how "deep" these squares should be and
I've pretty much decided on 4m, which gives me 2.5m height for hallways
and rooms while leaving 1.5m for decking, conduits, and the like.  This
means each square will be 9m^3.  Does this seem reasonable, or is there a
different/better convention I can use?

On the whole "Tact/Censorship/Listsplit" topic, I offer my humble opinion.

<soapbox>

1.  Saying "<insert supplement name here> is Crap" is a statement of
opinion.  Saying it when 15 or so other people have already said it
earlier in the week is still a statement of opinion, but it gets a little
repetitive.  It doesn't add anything to the discussion.

2.  Saying "X is Crap because..." is better, because it gives us something
to talk about besides the horribleness of X.  Namely, we can talk about
WHY X is horrible.  Again, however, if 15 people have given the exact same
reason nothing is being added to the content of the list.

3.  Saying "X is Crap.  Here's how I would fix it:..." is even better,
because now we can talk about rule patches, new systems, and the like.

4.  Saying "X is crap.  But I liked y.  Here's some stuff I built using
y." is probably the best.  If half the energy which has been spent on
analyzing Foss color-plates and those horrible deckplans had been spent on
using the SSDS, think of all the useful stuff which would have been posted
to the list in the past few weeks...

</soapbox>

Dane "Danger" Johnson         danger@visi.com
<a href="http://www.visi.com/~danger/">My Home</a>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 11:02:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Dane Johnson <danger@visi.com>
Subject: Hull Shapes...

Something has been bugging me for awhile about the ship design sequences:
I haven't been able to find where the hull configurations are actually
described anywhere.  Either I'm not looking hard enough/in the right
spots, or it's "obvious" and I'm just being dense.  At any rate, here's my
stab at what I think they are supposed to be:

1.  Wedge -- seen from the side, a triangle.  Seen from any other side,
roughly rectangular.  

2.  Block -- rectangular/square no matter which side you look at it from. 
 The Borg ship, for instance...

3.  Needle -- A pointy wedge.  Star Destroyers from the Other Game...

4.  Disk/Dome -- Circular.  The Millenium Falcon, frex.

5.  Cylinder -- Rectangular from the top or sides, but circular from the
front.  The Discovery from 2001 is probably Cylindrical.  

6.  Close Structure -- Any sort of solid shape which is not regular.  Like
the Nostrumo, or the Red Dwarf.

7.  Open Structure -- Any sort of weird splayed-out shape, like the
Enterprise.

I admit that these are guesses.  Am I even half right?  Does anybody have
better examples for the shapes?  Or a pointer to where they are described?

Dane "Danger" Johnson         danger@visi.com
<a href="http://www.visi.com/~danger/">My Home</a>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:17:02 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starship Design Philosophy

On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, John Kovalic wrote:

> 
> 
> A number of people (myself included) have noted that starships from Mileau
> 0 are pretty much the same *designs* as starships 2,000 years later, just
> packaged in different shells.
> 
> Perhaps it's time to start a discussion on design *philosophy.* What social
> paradigms in Mileau 0 would make starship function/interior design
> *different* than those
> 2,000 years later?
> 
> The example I used was the difference betweena  Roman Villa and a
> contemporary upper-middle class dwelling. Technology aside, the designs are
> just *different*, relying on and bowing to differing social forces of the
> day.

	Actually, they are far more technology related than social
related, insofar as environmental protection is primarily a technological
issue.  Roman Villas are reasonably well designed for comfortable living
in a Mediterranean climate, whereas most modern middle class dwellings are
designed for the periods of extreme temperature fluctuations one gets in
the temperate zones of the world(as I found out today...Brrrrr. 28 degrees
(F) as I rode in to work. Yes, I know, I'm just another whining desert
rat, so shut up already ;-) 

	The ideal house design for (non air conditioned) southern Arizona
is remarkably similar to a roman vill, with smaller windows, but still
essentially a string of rooms looking in on an enclosed courtyard.  Of
course that design is around, in part because of the Spanish influence,
which derived directly from Rome, with a lot of input from the more
desert-dwelling Moors.

	Starships, OTOH are designed for the IDENTICAL technological
problems; humans being humans, tend to be conservative, especially when
they're Vilani as well. It is a box designed to provide air, water, light,
heat, cooling, etc, while moving about in space using two or three modes
of propulsion that do not change in the intervening 1000 or so years of
the Imperium: Gravitics, Jump, and Newtonian (HePLaR, or whatever the
%#@$ odd capitalization is).  What's left is primarily a function of
style, and that, dear hearts, is in the capable (snigger...snurf...hee hee
hee) hands of the Marketing Department.

 
> It's been noted that society is believed to be more dynamic in Mileau 0
> than it will be once Strephon takes the throne. How will that be reflected
> in design philosophy? (We're not talking simply tacking on tailfins here -
> we're talking overall approach). Larger, hence less "efficient" staterooms?
> More living space, more comfort, with less emphasis on the bottom line? Or
> will there be a Wild West mentality, with most ships resembling the Secure
> trader?

	All of these are primarily style related issues; moreover, I
thinks ALL of these will be present at ALL times throughout the Imperium
in one form or another. It depends on who you buy the things from.  I
think that the problem here is that we've gotten jammed up into the USD as
the end all and be all of a ship's description...it's not, merely a rough
guide to a technical desription of a ship.

> To me, the differences between Mileau 2000 Aslan, K'Kree and Vilani
> starships is what I think of when I think of differing design paradigms. I
> don't see any reason why starships from Mileau 0 and Strephon's Imperium
> should be - when compared side-by-side - any less alien.

	No way...K'Kree and Aslan ships are different because their basic
desription is different: the physiology of their designers demands it;
Vilani shipas are that way because of societal differences and cultural
expectations, true, but the Imperium has always been a hodge-podge mongrel
of Vilani, Solomani, and other cultural influences, and like goulash on
the third reheating, starts to look the same everywhere.

	Better prose descriptions of the ships would point out the
differences better than just the USP.  

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:01:59 -0500
From: Clint Fishback <C-Fishback@mail.dec.com>
Subject: Starships

First the curled fins gotta go.

The way the original lab ship designed t made sense.  The ring allowed 
the scientist to kill artifical gravity and just have the thing rotate 
creating minimal gravity for crew movement.
With the new ship, it would look stupid rotating to create the same 
effect.

I like the new scout ship.  True the deckplans don't exactly match up 
with the picture but hey, how many actually do?  The glass front 
canopy would allow better visual of new planets.

The Safari ship bites though.  I liked the old one.  The front side 
being glass allowed for better views.  This new design doesn't even 
show the capture tanks.  And the lounge is spread out.  Plus what's up 
with the parasail look?

Seems to me they went at the deckplans backwards this time.  First 
they had the exterior drawn then created interior to match as best as 
possible.  This is evident by the different size staterooms for no 
apparent reason.  At least in all the other version of Traveller the 
ships were better laid out.  Someone with some sort of architectural 
knowledge took time to lay out the plans to make sense.  Gallies were 
next to staterooms.  Capture tanks hooked up to airlocks.

Just my .02Mcr

Beowulfe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 11:29:47 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com>
Subject: Traveller Integrated Timeline

I haven't updated it yet, but I have added a list of items I am looking for
information from, and a list of you folks who have given me infomation I 
am adding now, and made suggestions on alterations...

Thanks, and the site URL is: "http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html"

Thanks again!
- --
==============================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist, Communications Industry Services =
= (217) 351-8250 x2365  Computer Sciences Corporation  dmckinne@csci.csc.com =
= Official Kibitzer for Digest Group Publications    dmckinne@prairienet.org = 
=  Winter War XXIV Convention Chairman, February 14-16, 1997, Champaign, IL  =
==============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 11:43:33 -0600
From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: RCES LBD

At 08:29 PM 12/17/96 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>> The fuel used by all the starships is liquid hydrogen.  But to my
>> understanding it takes great pressure, or very cold temperatures to
>> keep hydrogen liquid.  How is this done.  It always says in the rule
>> books that it's just liquid hydrogen, but never details the
>> container/tanks/or freezers that it would have to be kept in.  Would
>> it be in pressurized tanks, like liquid nitrogen or liquid oxygen??
>
>Pressure *won't* liquefy hydrogen unless the temp is very, very low
>anyway. Ditto for oxygen and nitrogen.
>
>All gases have a set of related properties. One is the critical
>temperature. That's the temp above which it is *impossible* to liquefy
>the gas, regardless of the pressure. The pressure required to liquefy
>the gas *at* the critical temp is the critical pressure. 
>
>The critical temp for hydrogen is several hundred degrees below zero (C).
>The critical temps for oxygen and nitrogen are higher but still more
>than 100 below. The only "common" gases that have a critical temp above
>room temp are things like CO2, chlorine, propane, freon, etc. 
>
>So LH2 is *cold* (around 20 K or -253 C). Like all cryogenic gases,
>it's kept in what amounts to a high-tech thermos bottle. In fact,
>thermos bottles were originally invented to store liquid gases, and
>then someone realized that if they'd do that, they'd do great at
>keeping things like coffee hot or drinks cold.
>
>The basic setup is a double-walled tank with a vacuum in between the
>walls. The vacuum prevents heat transfer by conduction and convection.
>The facing surfaces are polished and plated to give a mirror finish to
>reduce heat transfer via radiation. Obviously, there do need to be
>occasional "spacers" in-between the walls. You use things with *very*
>low heat conductivity for such. 
>
>There are also some insulations that have been developed that allow you
>to fill a railroad tank car with liquid helium (at around 3 K) and ship
>it clear across the US (say a week's travel) and only have the temp go
>up by less than a degree. 
>
>So keeping the stuff cold isn't a big problem. Especially in space.
>It's the folks on the ground that have the real problems. In space, you
>can liquefy hydrogen, or even helium simply by sheilding it from the
>star and local planets, and letting it radiate its heat to empty space
>(effective temp of the empty sky is 4 K). You have to be patient, but
>it will work!
>
>

One point but unless the cryos are actively maintaining temperature at the
critical temp the container must be venting, the smaller the cross sectional
area the more it must be vented. Also the tank car that you talk about must
have some extremely expensive insulation because the liquid gas vendors(Air
Liquide, Tri State, and Linde division of Union Carbide) in my state just
accept the gas loss due to venting. But they make sure that the cross
sectional area is to their economic advantage though.

If the container does not vent it will blow up.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #769
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